Problem with elasticity and holding shape
Looking for suggestions. I’ve been baking a standard loaf for years, same proportions of everything, through all seasons in relatively consistent ambient temps (75-80F). I had it down, and it turned out very acceptable in rise, ear and crumb. (Never got real SF sour...but that’s another story.) The past few months, no matter what I have tried, I just cannot get a strong, elastic dough that will hold its shape despite increased stretch and folds. It seems to protealize and get weaker and stickier, in fact. I have tried everything I could think of: rebuilding starters, eliminating autolyse, mixing to windowpane, not mixing to windowpane, and decreasing hydration from my normal 78-80% to (so far) 70%. This last loaf (at 70%) acted better than previous ones, but still weak...on the order of what I would have expected from my previous 80% dough. It is getting ridiculous, looking like I might have to go below 70% to achieve what I used to achieve at 80%. The only variable I haven’t changed is the flour- KA bread flour- although I did change the method of storing it from cupboard to refrigerator. And the timing of that seems to coincide with when I started experiencing the problems. Thinking (out of desperation) that that might have been the problem (I dunno...increased humidity absorption or something), I let the flour warm up for a day before using. Same result. I think it’s unlikely, but do you think I got a bad batch of flour or that my refrigeration of it caused some unexplained change? Obviously, I could answer this question myself by acquiring a new batch of flour and not refrigerating it, but I still have a few bags left to go through and am seeking some comments prior to wasting those. What else could it be? What am I overlooking? Any comments would be appreciated.
Go back to when it was good and go from there. Enjoy!
Well, I guess I deserved that. I did ask for ANY comment.
I had one go south on me a few years ago. It got to a stage where it dissolved the dough instead of making it rise. After a few attempts to fix it, I threw in the towel and began a new one that I still use today, 13 years later.
Paul
Thanks, Paul. That was where I started...thought something was wrong with the starter, but I tried changing it over several iterations. Even tried adding a rye starter. Same result, so I have pretty much ruled out the starter as the problem. Current one I'm using is strong and healthy...triples in 4 hrs in a 1:2:2 ratio.
I am really wondering if the refrigeration damaged the enzymes or something like that...can't see how it would, or....if the enzymes WERE damaged....why I would experience the apparent protease (if that is, indeed, what is happening) since that reaction is enzymatic and would obviously require active enzymes,,,but I dunno. I was wondering (failing any other factor I may have overlooked) if anyone else had encountered anything else like this- either with a recent batch of KA flour or with refrigerated flour in general.
i’ve never refrigerated my flour, but i usually keep it in the freezer (i buy in bulk and live in a place that is hot during the summer). am pretty non-chalant about letting it warm up before using it — sometimes doing that and often just mixing it straight in to a dough.
i agree with your logic that damaged enzymes would seem to have the opposite effect to what you are seeing. any chance the flour took on moisture while in the fridge and then started to autolyse? does it smell any different than usual (to the extent that you can remember that)?
i have heard of individual batches of large-scale commercial flour having issues (particularly during the pandemic when some places had shortages — there were a few threads about that here, iirc). i don’t use KA anymore (just because i moved and switched to something local), but i think they have a “help line” that others have reported is actually helpful. if you still have the bags the flour was sold in, you may be able to find some reference numbers that would help them track down the batch?
hope this helps,
c
Thanks for the suggestion! (BTW, it WAS a different lot of flour...new...fresh from the store...which opens me up to the question concerning whether it could be the flour itself, even though I wouldn't expect that from KA.) What got me thinking about a possible effect from refrigerating the flour was another post where this was being discussed here in the "Advanced Topics" area. Other comments elsewhere indicated that refrigeration would have the effect of drying it out though and, if that were the case, I would expect that I would be adding MORE water not less to get to my typical dough. On the other hand, my refrig is opened multiple times a day and it is logical to assume that the warm humid air contacting cold surfaces would result in more moisture through condensation. Whether that would be enough to affect the flour though remains a question that will probably be solved only upon eliminating that practice with any new purchases. I guess I will just have to work my way through what I have for now and deal with it.
You've had no problems with storing in the freezer? Maybe I'll try that next time (with a lesser amount just in case).
... when this kind of thing happens. A change in the starter still seems likely to me despite what you said. Otherwise, I wonder about the water. If it's city water, there could have been a chemical change. Still, you said the problems started after you made a change in storing the flour (although I'm not clear if it's also a different lot of flour). That sounds suspicious, doesn't it? So I'd suggest trying some other flour and seeing if that makes a difference.
I've baked with a lot of Gold Medal All Purpose Unbleached, and to tell the truth, I don't really see much if any difference between that and KA all purpose flour. So try it out, see if it gets a different result. Oh, and just in case there's something unusual about the flour, I'd suggest doing several starter refresh cycles with the alternate flour before baking a loaf.
But I just can't see that it is the starter. Like I said, I've built up new starters several times trying to track this down...and these starters were started from different flours using stored "mothers" that were refrigerated from before the problems started happening...and they all act fine...in fact, the current one I used for the last loaf had to be fed every 4 hours as it tripled in that time at a 1:2:2 ratio. In maintaining it over several days of refreshment, I had to go to just a miniscule barely existent scraping of innoculum in order to get it to the point where I could stretch the feeding to only twice a day.
As for the water, I typically use tap water (and, except for a brief period of experimentation using mineral water a long time ago) always have, although I do let it sit out for a day or two to evap any chlorine that may be present. That being said, I did have some distilled water on hand and tried that just on the off chance. Same result, so I think I have eliminated water as the problem.
I like GMAP too. Used to use it to bake, but I moved to KA and now use GMAP to feed the starters as it is less expensive and does the job. I usually add a few pinches of dark rye as well. Problem is, I have refrigerated that flour as well.. I have noticed that my usual refreshment at 100% hydration does also seem a bit looser than it used to be, so maybe the humidity thing IS the issue. I don't know. I DO know that I will be glad when I have worked my way through all this refrigerated flour...don't think I will do that again.
When I have stored flour in the refrigerator, I've always bagged it in a zip-lock bag to make sure that condensation doesn't get in. I've not had a problem with any flours stored that way. So perhaps water getting in the flour is the problem, as you are suspecting.
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Just to close this out, my loaves are now back to normal. I discontinued using the refrigerated flour except to feed my starter (hate to waste what I have). Using only new, unrefrigerated flour for the rest of the build. I can't say with certainty that it was the refrigeration that caused my problem as certainty would involve multiple repetitions of going back to the refrigerated flour on an experimental basis (which I am not going to do), but whether coincidence or cause, going back to using unrefrigerated flour has solved the problem...and, I am happy with that. Thanks for all the input!